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Our Bands arenot very good these days

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.. Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Piping Connections on Wed 19 Nov - 16:08:50

http://blogpipe-pipesdrums.com/

Looking past the MAP comments , theres some 'damming' comments on Bands in the UK

I have spent the last few weeks getting the band (4B) to think about phrasing and pointing in everything they play, we have a G1 Piping tutor coming into the band to help us out once a week, again going over phrasing etc, to say that nothing like this goes on oer here is naieve to say the least , 2 bands he has used as examples, well lets think about it another way,
If a major championship was held over in United Socialists of America and our band was known to be going over, we wouldnt be spending the money just to take part, and the knowledge we were going would atract perhaps a few more players who i could pick n choose from!!! It wouldnt really be the same band who would be playing the minors over here !!!

I have no interest in solo piping , although i can listen to a good solo piper playing a good tune on a good pipe,
I got into this to play in a band , I was 7 years old and in Princes Street watching Edinburgh Police playing, and thats all i wanted to do after that time.
Oh by the way i dont often Defend the RSPBA but it really is
The Royal Scottish PIPE BAND Ass. no the solo pipers association ...

Maybe he hit a nerve laughing or maybe he has a nerve laughing laughing laughing
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Redneck on Wed 19 Nov - 21:23:15

Talking keek..........is he trying to say that the PM of Ravara or Davey Barnes or.......jeeze ya could go on, can't get a band to play good music just 'cause they never took onboard a solo career.....arsewipe.

Tell ya what..............just check out where all the majority of world championship titles end up.
Gordy will back me on this too............most of the PM's are not great solo pipers.........but they can sure as hell get a band to play and get good sound.

My solo days are long gone, but a can still set a band 'n run a tight practise night........this guy is well aff the mark on his comments IMO.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Robbie.Crow on Wed 19 Nov - 22:40:10

This guy actualy really annoys me, first he starts his crap with the best bass section, now he's dissing UK bands, oh aye.. and he's had a fare pop at "the worlds should be a world contest bla bla bla". This guy's power over PD has went to his head, and he thinks that he is now the authority on pipe band things world wide, and think he needs to have an opinion on everything just because people PAY to read it.

First of all, if lower grade bands want to compete in Scotland (coz lets face it.. the worlds isnae moving for atleast 15 years) then they have NO CHOICE but to prepare MAP tunes.

Second, have you heard some of the grade 4 bands "medleys" over there? Av heard cats being strangeled that sound better.

Third, he's right.. band piping and solo piping ARE different things, but EVERY piper in my g4 i know can play a 2/4 properly, why? good teaching. It's not our fault they have smelly broon stuff teachers who cannae teach so they need to compete to get good reamerks!!!

a really do despise this guy.. he has an opinion on everything pipe band realted, and no-one is really interested in it....
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Gordy88 on Wed 19 Nov - 23:20:06

Its always dickheads like this who get Americans a bad name.

NO offence to the Americans on here, but some of your countrymen really get my GOAT

They become 5 minute experts, and because they think it should be, they insist that everyone else should do it their way.

This sort of attitude has caused in excess of 4000 American deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, and turned USA into a laughing stock at best and a hated enemy at worst.

These people really turn off others with this attitude, much to the detriment of their countrymen, many of whom, if not most, are very decent people, of few examples of which we have on here, Katie and Reid to name but two,

However, the world never seems to short of Assholes.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Dai Robb on Thu 20 Nov - 13:56:55

Is this guy a Moderator on Dunsire? the name rings a bell? MY old man had a saying for people like him, they are full of Pee and keek(thats the polite version)
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by True_Blue_Piper on Thu 20 Nov - 17:31:56

....the guy was playing with the Spririt of Scotland PB for the Worlds and I read somewhere before that he played with a top G1 band Scotchland a couple of decades ago.....1970s....Shotts?
It's his blog, he has a reasonable name...and is entitled to his opinion whether you agree or not.
I personally don't agree, I think he is just another moaner from the North American continent....however......
Perhaps he'll get Washington to spend several billions bailing out their pipe bands as well as Ford, General Motors and Chrysler.....
But listen up, I know the sentiment, I've heard it before.....yes, for the past decade or so the reputation of the USA has crumbled in Europe and throughout the world, but don't take it out on those who aren't politicians.
There's good and bad all over, and the last thing the forum needs is for animosity against a certain people just because of their nationality.
What's next.....am I going to get it in the throat because the Philippines has the most corrupt government that country has ever seen, or am I going to get it because I work for a subsidiary government to a so called communist regime?
There are a lot of people who want to stick it to the USA (OK.....George Dubya may be acceptable !!!) however I think many have short memories. Go to St. Malo in France, to the fields in Belgium or go to Fort Bonifacio in the Philippines and note the hundreds and thousands of gravestones of the Americans who gave their lives so as we're not conversing in German or Japanese today.
The guy who wrote the article is not one of the BDF "self appointed" experts, ...the guy has a good rep and has done his time playing at the top levels.

And....he has never mentioned, not even once......wearing a caubeen at a jaunty angle...
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Robbie.Crow on Thu 20 Nov - 19:17:13

"Andrew Berthoff was a member of the 78th Fraser Highlanders Pipe Band for many years following several years with the Polkemmet Colliery Pipe Band. He has many solo piping awards to his name, including the Piobaireachd Society (Canada) Gold Medal, the Silver Medal and three Ontario Champion Supreme aggregate awards for piobaireachd. He is currently Chair of the Music Board of the Pipers & Pipe Society of Ontario, and very active as an adjudicator and teacher. A native of St. Louis, Missouri, Andrew has lived in Toronto since 1988 and is a senior vice-president with a leading public-relations agency."

Aye.. and a first class big head..... this guy should leave things alone that he doesnt know alot about...
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Piping Connections on Thu 20 Nov - 19:36:27

I wasnt on doubting his pedigree , i knew who he was and who he had played for, a fine player no doubt , but to blanket cover all the lower grade bands over here and some top bands because they have no solo piping input !!! its as bad as us saying that all bands in the USA are a waste of space which clearly giving travelling distances and different lifestyles i honestly think there are some good bands over there. so clearly they arenot all bad
I was just annoyed by what he said thats all , still think he is a top player, and its nothing against our friends over the pond .
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Wyatt on Thu 20 Nov - 22:01:37

Digging a "big " hole here...!!
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Piping Connections on Thu 20 Nov - 23:17:46

Wyatt wrote:Digging a "big " hole here...!!

Yeah Cheers Wyatt , think i will drop the shovel now lol Pint
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by stormy on Thu 20 Nov - 23:30:02

Wyatt wrote:Digging a "big " hole here...!!

The only hole being dug here is being made by Mr. Berthoff imo.
He is entitled to his opinion, as I am to mine.
I always try and make it known that I only give my opinion as a direct
result of my own experiences. Mr. Berthoff and the forum he moderates on
unfortunately give the impression that the "opinions" given are in fact the
"honest truth" and should not be taken otherwise.
I believe that this type of attitude has led to a certain "them and us" feeling
within the piping world on both sides of the Atlantic.

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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Redneck on Fri 21 Nov - 0:18:32

Well said John. No time fer people like that, I couldn't care less if someone was a star or a learner in a 4b band........take people as you find 'em. Goin' from this article a hope I never find this guy.

Yer spot on to about giving opinions John, that's all they are at the end of the day, if someone asks your opinion they themselves must feel you are worthy of asking, if someone asks me I am quick to point out that it's in my own experience...ect,ect. Then tell them to try it 'n make their own minds up. Not lay it down as one of the ten commandments.........ffs.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Redneck on Fri 21 Nov - 0:20:49

Piping Connections wrote:
Wyatt wrote:Digging a "big " hole here...!!

Yeah Cheers Wyatt , think i will drop the shovel now lol Pint

Lapper.................... laughing laughing laughing laughing , you started it mucker. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil big grin

whistle KEEP 'ER LIT. Ha ha Ha ha Ha ha
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by True_Blue_Piper on Fri 21 Nov - 4:15:24

the things you write when you've got a beer in you.... Mutley

I really should remember to never, never, ever get on a forum after I have been with Mr. Carlsberg for several hours.....
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by KatieMc on Fri 21 Nov - 4:47:14

Ahh so it was Mr. Carlsburg that made you kinder and gentler toward the US! I wondered... that doesn't sound like you at all!! big grin

And while I'm here.... thank you Gordy for saying I'm decent people.... I'm really nice, for an American!! laughing

And now I'll let y'all get LOL
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by stormy on Mon 24 Nov - 21:19:01

KatieMc wrote:

Ok, back on topic.......the standard of competing bands in ALL grades here in Scotland is better now than it was when I was in my teens!!!!

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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Redneck on Mon 24 Nov - 21:54:05

Very true John, this especially goes for the lower grades 3A downwards. The sound and technique is fer superior nowadays than it was even in the 80's.

What ya reckon the reason fer this is then?..........better tuition?........workshops or just better talented youngsters?.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by stormy on Mon 24 Nov - 22:01:51

I reckon the advance of workshops, the National Piping Centre etc which in turn leads to talented players being noticed at a younger age.

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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Redneck on Mon 24 Nov - 22:11:26

Yip, many years ago I can recall John Wilson talking about this on pipeline regarding getting to the grass roots of piping via better schooling in the art of piping.

When I started, probably the same with you m8, there were no workshops or piping exams as such.....now there are kids of teenage years with judging certificates.......class ( theory ) this is a sticky subject I'm going to hit on here.

Brain box wi all the exams ~~~~~~~ good piper, PM of a winning band no paperwork.

Which one in your opinion would be the better judge. Twisted Evil

BTW, am not knocking the exams in any shape or form here, I had to do mine at the castle, so I know what it takes.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by orange_wings on Mon 24 Nov - 22:19:10

I would go with a P/M of a winning band to be a better judge. There is only so much someone can teach you about piping, how can you put a good sound on paper? I reckon that the P/M of a winning band would use experience over education and that, for me, would be a good thing.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Redneck on Mon 24 Nov - 22:59:41

My views exactly Peter, having said that, how can these youngsters with the RSPBA certificates get to judge if they themselves can't gain experience via PM leadership?.

There's one certain judge I spoke with two seasons ago reference a remark he made on our sheet.( no, he wasn't grabbed by the throat, I used my discretion and my superb social skills 'n asked him in the proper manner. big grin ) when I put my views to him politely he said "Aye well a suppose so " WTF?.........this is a grade 1 judge by the way, I'm not going to name names, but, the very same guy couldn't play a well controlled 6/8 march.

He can talk a good show 'n baffle ya wi all his technical jargon, but IMO is a very poor judge.........so, back to the main part. Who do ya trust / put forward to judge ?.
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Piping Connections on Tue 25 Nov - 1:47:19

I Agree with you both there guys
I decided that it would be worth my while going for my certificates about 5 years ago, the main tutor was great no problems with him at all, but there was another guy there who had gained all his certificates up to teaching level, well he was shocking , he couldnt tune his own pipes never mind anything else , his playing was seriously average 'beeing kind' but he was brilliant on note values and explaining how to pass an exam , without having to learn all the course work,
I passed the first couple of exams no problem without the tutors really teaching me anything or improving my understanding of the instrument. Kinda put me off going back !!!!
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by janelle on Tue 25 Nov - 7:39:03

Do the piping schools and courses offer RPL (Recognised Prior Learning) to Grade 1 pipers and Pipe Majors?
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Gordy88 on Tue 25 Nov - 13:18:16

Judging is a difficult thing to do.

However, when someone has to judge on their objective opinion, it becomes moreso.

The problem we have in the P/B world is that many of our judges are not 'current'

Some are just not capable.

Some do not even have the required time in grades 1 and 2

Some are not very good, but are trying very hard,

And, i'm sad to say, some are dishonest.

What doesnt help either, are certain people, on certain websites, talking crap and slating judges for giving their opinion.

Its a simple concept, a judge will give prizes to the band he likes best, you must give the judge what he wants to hear.

Case in point, Europeans last year, Harry Russell judges G1, he had FM winning, with SLOT and Shotts well down, the reason, he likes the style that FM play. less so SLOT and Shotts.,

The so called experts slated him on TBT, any band member with a brain could see what was going to happen.

Its not hard, some people are fond of anal sex, thats ok, but I won't be signing up for it, nor will Redneck

Robbie???????????????????? laughing laughing

To improve judging, we need a judging panel, similar to the football referees panel, when judges do silly things, they should be pulled, and yellow carded or red if needed.

Another case in point, FM at British last season, Richard Parkes had a equipment failure, Peter Snaddon had them first! And Parkes didnt play a note! Tony Sloan, had them last, he saw the intro, and went to the tent,

But, BOTH of them were wrong, judges don't know the rules.

There has to be oversight, and there has to be a forum where Pipe majors and leading drummers can have constructive debate.

And anybody with a vested interest in pipe bands SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO JUDGE!!!! SHEPHERD, SHEPHERD, McCALLISTER, WARNOCK CHESNEY HOY ETC ETC

Integrity is not an issue, its just too incestuous.

As for doing the certificates, I started last year, i found the theory very interesting, and the practical undemanding, that said, I had to start theory at grade 1(lowest level) and as there is a rule of no more than 2 grades between disciplines, practical at grade 3, the exam for grade 3 practical is to play a simple march and be able to tune 1 drone, just scraped it laughing

But, to carry on, the whole thing moves into Pibroch'

Personally,I despise it, I cant listen to it at all, its awful. And i packed it in.

I do not know what playing a pibroch' has to do with judging a pipe band, and nobody can give me a good answer either.

To get judges who measure up, we need an oversight panel, we need guys and grls who have played at the top level for a number of years, and we need a seasons worth of dummy runs,

Stand in the circle and do it. If the results match the judges already there, off you go, 2 years probation and then carry on

It will also allow some of the bandside experts to get up and have a go too, they will be able to put their money where their mouths are

cheers Sa-aash saviour of t
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.. Re: Our Bands arenot very good these days

Post by Piping Connections on Tue 25 Nov - 13:30:25

janelle wrote:Do the piping schools and courses offer RPL (Recognised Prior Learning) to Grade 1 pipers and Pipe Majors?

Is that like courses for teaching ?? if so yes RSPBA are now puting all the tutors through an SVQ course before allowing them to teach on their syllabus
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