The Credit Crrrrunch..!!

Has any of my fellow muscians out there experienced effects of the present financial
crisis,...in Edinburgh a few gigs..Royal Bank of Scotland have been cancelled ,a tour company
has pulled out of the UK altogether....Brides are making enquiries but I think they are now
shopping round more.for a best quote..!.I am led to believe that the 250th Burns Anniversary
has had a few functions cancelled and the City is waiting with anticipation regarding the Clan Gathering/Homecoming
event for 2009...already a few rooms cancelled in various Hotels in Edinburgh...so do we drop our prices to accomodate
the times...we live in..?

Yeah ive had 8 cancellations from brides for next year already
2 have postponed the wedding indeff
3 cutting back
2 got a cheaper quote (prob same as the 3 cutting back)
1 his future mrs run off with someone else !!!!!!
1 bride told me she paid £3500 for her dress and paid up front as they were paying as they go and the dress company wouldnt return a penny !!!! i didnt have the heart so refunded all my deposits except the cheaper quote ones !!!!

The one whose bride ran off with someone else had a lucky escape didn't he!

I haven't noticed a big difference in jobs, except that the hotel i did last year are not having a piper this year, due to costs, not a problem as I was sort of double booked anyway.

I have however had a few enquiries with people having been (allegedly) quoted a low as £40 for a wedding, and I do know that there are a couple of shall we say players of lesser ability doing jobs here now, I heard a DVD of one, and it was awful, about £40 quids worth all right.

I have heard that a few Brides have been cutting back, and certainly here in Northern Ireland, were a piper is seen as an extra rather than an essential, that will continue to happen

Just take a bar tab 'n teach 'em a lesson, so far none of my gigs have been hit..........fingers crossed, but yes, maybe a lowering of fee's may well be the done thing.

Who was the £40er Gordy?...........bet it was a unique sound.Someone we know?.

Gordy88 wrote:I have however had a few enquiries with people having been (allegedly) quoted a low as £40 for a wedding.....

Lowering fees would most likely bring the cost of a piper down to a more realistic figure in the first place.
Pipers have tended to be greedy over the years and asked for more than a piper is really worth. Minimum's of £120 - £150 are excessive in my mind.

£40......warning signals should start!! Better going to the pound shop and buying a plastic piper on a keyring!!!

£150.00 less Tax £22.34 = £127.66 less fuel,ave £12.00 = £115.66 less anual advertising devided between weddings £22.76 = £92.90 Liability Insurance ave £7.00 per wedding = £85.90 Business Vehicle insurance ave per wedding £4.70=£81.20 Dry Cleaning Bill ave per wedding £2.25=£78.95
Wedding starts at approx 1.30 pm so piper is there from 1pm top table goes in at 5pm so 4 hrs
£78.95 Devided by 4 hrs = £19.73 per hour and i have just listed the things people are unaware of , no mention of Pension input , N.I. or uniform replacement, travel time to and from engagement, practice time at home, going to the rehearsal if youve never played there before, time taken to sit with the Bridezilla and mute to discuss tunes, reeds , bags , top drone replacements, heating, lighting, stationary, Its a business now John and an extremely competitive business so to get your foot in the door when you cant and dont want to drop your price you have to offer more time consuming products in your package.
Not forgetting the Hotels who want you to do burns nights and st andrews for £50 because they feel they give you business throughout the year !!!

Overpaid your having a laugh !!! oh and before you think ime beeing over the score , i am a ligit business and i have had the DSS and Tax man 3 times this year checking my books because some competitor thought i wasnt legit and reported me !!!!
I made more money this year than in the past two years so there is money to be made doing something i enjoy but its not a kings ransom, the biggest problem i have is getting pipers i can trust to do gigs for me - Thank god for folk like Peter or i would have been really stuggling !!!!

tax ???

Good lay out Richard. TBH there's a guy here who is bloody awful 'n he get £120+ for gigs.........Gordy knows him well, he even had an ASBO issued to keep him outa Belfast City shopping malls. So the service that Richard runs and others like him well deserve the fee, people will pay for that added touch if the bridezilla wants it.

My own fees range from £50 - £100, normally the £90. Some time ago I got a gig I didn't really want to do, gave 'em the price of £90.......they handed me the ton. Yes I've went back....ended up a good one too, 'n not just for the money, but it helps lol.

Normally it's £50-60, but the odd £100 one comes along 'n gratefully received. Quite a few of my gigs have been free for charities 'n it's the knock on effect they have had that's led to the paid jobs, so a won't complain.

@Rod~~~~~~~ Tax? aye I agree........fack the tax man he's ripped me aff all ma life.

Anyone know the HOT LINE to the Tax Man?

Yip....(thats Cowboy Talk..by the way..) !!!..I attend gigs in the full kit...you have to in the Big City
so replacing Doublets ,Kilts and Plaids..shoes,spats,etc.regular...and not forgetting the instruments needs..!!
can be costly..on a one to one basis ..you have to have stepped right of the parade ground..no frayed cuffs or worn out kilts
Richard is correct..getting good "men" to go to a prestigious venue and do the "biz" is difficult..lots of pipers out there,but to do a
bit of theatre..a bit of interaction with the customers..not everyone is up for it..and to go on a stage and to play for Highland Dancers
....thats something else..!!.".a dinnae play fur dancers.."is a usual reply..!!..already I am "cutting the cloth"to suit...asking what the
customer wants..how long will the evening be ?..then pricing accordingly...if its to expensive..wee Jimmy ootside Marks and Spencer
will dae it for £20..00..go for it...in the words of a old friend..one Grant Frazer..legendary host of the George Hotel Scottish evening
"some gigs are no worth getting blacked up for ...!!.that still applies..today..

Good one Wyatt.
I suppose a lot depends on whether you rely on the extra income from piping or not.
I know from the past what you are saying. The full deal gear is expensive, but at the same time, by having that gear you can get jobs that other pipers won't get.
It's been 25 years now, but I used to play at the "Bonnie Scotchand" nights in Edinburgh as well....especially at the Carlton Hotel, at Prestonfield House and at a hotel at Duddingston (The Manor House...or some name like that).
I used to play for Christine Crow's dancing school....and Wyatt, as you'll likely be aware, twenty years ago, my father used to also play at a lot of these functions.
Out here, we get a lot of piping jobs, in Hong Kong, Macao, Thailand, Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines and in mainland China. The weird thing we face, is the reverse racism from Asian people about having pipers of asian ethnicity.
We've got pipers fully booked up for Hogmanay and for Burns and have seen no decline in either the number of piping jobs, nor the fee.
p.s.......you've just been on the TV yet again. What we do have to endure is travel programmes about various countries including Scotland and there you were playing downstairs in a restaurant in the High Street ( a few yards up from the junction with Cockburn Street)...must be the tenth time I've seen that programme!
p.s......is that shark.....Cavannah still on the go....the bloke who has the militaria collectors shop in Cockburn Street?)

Yip...The wee antique shop is still there...and yea...you get used to being famous!!!!!!....Americans come up to me on the street
and ask if.."are you the piper on the Samantha Brown Travel Show...the Wyatt Earp handlebar is the "giveaway"
So all the selling of Bonnie Scotland..does work....!!

Sorry Richard but I didn't mean to get yer back up.
Sure there are costs involved and these costs must be realistic.
The breakdown you give is fine for someone trying to make a full time living out of piping. I think however that
the vast majority of pipers playing at weddings are looking for the money in their "back pocket" so to speak.
Now that I've retired from the police I have thought about playing the pipes "full time" and decided against for the simple reason that costs (as you have described) would make my services unviable compared to a local piper prepared to take the same wedding for half the price.

I currently ask for £80 - £100 for weddings (depending on location from my home).

I totally deplore hotels and such like who charge the customer £200 plus for a piper at the time of booking and give the piper only half.

I do not think that you can charge the same for playing for an hour as you can for hanging about for an hour. Hanging about is part and parcel of a wedding.
£30 an hour for private lessons.......maybe........for a wedding, no chance.....look for another piper.

stormy wrote:Sorry Richard but I didn't mean to get yer back up.
.

No drama's here John , your still first on the bell at the concert m8

stormy wrote: .....£30 an hour for private lessons.......maybe........for a wedding, no chance.....look for another piper.

£30 an hour for private lessons? Yikes!! Richard, pay no attention to Mr. Stormy!! Can't have you getting any ideas!!

Wyatt wrote:Yip...The wee antique shop is still there...and yea...you get used to being famous!!!!!!....Americans come up to me on the street
and ask if.."are you the piper on the Samantha Brown Travel Show...the Wyatt Earp handlebar is the "giveaway"
So all the selling of Bonnie Scotland..does work....!!

Couldn't you have got on the travel show with Megan McCormick, Ian Wright or something? That Samantha Brown is awful!

stormy wrote:

I do not think that you can charge the same for playing for an hour as you can for hanging about for an hour. Hanging about is part and parcel of a wedding.
£30 an hour for private lessons.......maybe........for a wedding, no chance.....look for another piper.

I wouldn't agree with that Stormy If I do a wedding (thats not through Richard) I normally charge for the time spent waiting as normally the piping part is very small... Most weddings I do the playing time is about 20mins to half an hour tops but about 3-4 hours hanging around with jack all to do... if I was only charging for playing time then there would be not point in doing it. Also, I normally charge a flat rate for the first 3 hours then £20 an hour after that. I think its only fair that, if they expect you to hang around and do nothing and 9 times out of 10 speak to no one then you have a right to expect to be paid for it.

Rich, its no problem doing the weddings for you, It probably helps me out more than it does you!! lol Anyway.. thats my tupence worth!

Well not being a Piper(OH?? you noticed did you?) I think if someone is willing to pay for a piper, they either accept the quote or they dont? end of?, I mean they have the choice? and anyone who "over quotes" and does not get any Gigs? obviously needs to look at his marketing strategy?
Whilst if someone is getting weddings every week and is happy to accept less? their choice again. Looking at how Richard has laid out his Business Plan, I personally think he has got the balance just about right.

orange_wings wrote:

stormy wrote:

I do not think that you can charge the same for playing for an hour as you can for hanging about for an hour. Hanging about is part and parcel of a wedding.
£30 an hour for private lessons.......maybe........for a wedding, no chance.....look for another piper.

I wouldn't agree with that Stormy If I do a wedding (thats not through Richard) I normally charge for the time spent waiting as normally the piping part is very small... Most weddings I do the playing time is about 20mins to half an hour tops but about 3-4 hours hanging around with jack all to do... if I was only charging for playing time then there would be not point in doing it. Also, I normally charge a flat rate for the first 3 hours then £20 an hour after that. I think its only fair that, if they expect you to hang around and do nothing and 9 times out of 10 speak to no one then you have a right to expect to be paid for it.

Rich, its no problem doing the weddings for you, It probably helps me out more than it does you!! lol Anyway.. thats my tupence worth!

I can see where you are coming from but I still think that £20 an hour is a bit much.
I also charge a flat fee (agreed in advance) but that fee is for the day.
The fee for a wedding in Aderdeen would not be the same as for one in Paisley however.
My fee will depend on what is required and how much playing is involved. Travelling expences, meals etc. will also be taken into account.
I suppose that I do indeed charge for the "waiting time" but I was trying to make the point that if you were to play between 2pm & 3pm (£100) and again between 4pm & 5pm (£100) would you also charge £100 for the intervening period?

I think that some pipers overcharge and I'm happy with what I charge for gigs.
I like to think that I provide a quality, professional service at a reasonable cost.
If I'm "undercharging" for the service provided, then I will be happy to step back and look at my own procedures.

No replies since my last post but I have had time to think about costs.

After some personal consideration then I think that £20 an hour about right.

Depending on "who" (family, friends etc) and where (travel) I will now use
£18 - £20 an hour as a start point.

The current "credit crunch" affects me as well!!

stormy wrote:No replies since my last post but I have had time to think about costs.

After some personal consideration then I think that £20 an hour about right.

Depending on "who" (family, friends etc) and where (travel) I will now use
£18 - £20 an hour as a start point.

The current "credit crunch" affects me as well!!

I do a fair few gigs over the year, and sometimes you have to work out what they will pay, and charge accordingly.

A big issue is where you live, getting a decent piper in Scotland or NI is a lot easier than getting one in the south of England for example, and I know that some pretty mediocre players are getting a lot more than we are.

As Peter says, there is a lot of hanging about, and the truth is, They are buying your time and expertise, doesn't matter if you are playing or not, you are still unable to do your own thing. And in many cases they only want you for a bit of colour in the pictures!

Weddings are a funny thing, they will pay over a grand for photos, £150 for some guy to stand in a photo dressed as a sweep, £250 for a pair of 'white Doves' to be released ( they are usually Fan Tail homing pigeons and are home before the owner!!)

At these prices, why should a Piper of ability wearing the best part of a grands worth of kit and 2/3 grands worth of pipes not charge similar rates?

Contact any musical agency, they will tell you that the going rate for hire of Any musician is £30/35 per hour,

Thats what I charge, minimum £100, I dont have a maximum, but have never gone over £200 and that was for a 3 hour drive each way.

The only thing is here in NI, the piper is an extra, and if money gets tight, you might be the first thing cut, slightly different in Scotland though.

Thing is, if you don't get the job you can always sit in the house and have a drink, so its not a washout.

As you say, most guys are looking for a bit of cash in hand. Fine, but I do know that Customs and revenue employ people to check up on things like this, and yuo could end up getting shafted.

If you do start to advertise, do a tax return, you'll get allowed 40p per mile on travelling, web fees, pipes, dope, kit, bags reeds etc, doesnt have to be that accurate, but it might save some embarrassment.

Cheers

Word of mouth m8, that way ya won't have a paper trail........ . Got a wee gig tonight £80 15 min stint.

Really comes in handy now Lorraine was paid off. Two lay off's in our place yesterday wi more to follow.

Oooops, that's fer two 15min stints. , am not complainin'....a might get a few wee bevies too. Takin' Lorraine 'n ma Dad wi me, done this show last month fer a Mason Somme Association. Same group, bloody good night.

Redneck wrote:Word of mouth m8, that way ya won't have a paper trail........ . Got a wee gig tonight £80 15 min stint.

Really comes in handy now Lorraine was paid off. Two lay off's in our place yesterday wi more to follow.

Oooops, that's fer two 15min stints. , am not complainin'....a might get a few wee bevies too. Takin' Lorraine 'n ma Dad wi me, done this show last month fer a Mason Somme Association. Same group, bloody good night.

That works too,
Wouldnt look good an ex peeler getting done for tax evasion

Murder, GBH, theft, drug trafficing drink drivbing are all OK now, so you never know

Enjoy the night