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Drone reeds in various pipes.

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.. Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Redneck on Sat 3 Jan - 17:18:26

Firstly let me say this is not a knock on Naill pipes, however this experiment had both myself and Harry Stevenson baffled.

By now most will be aware I've obtained an excellent set of A.Logan pipes. Prior to trying the drones Harry blew an excellent set of McPherson drones fitted wi Hepburn cane. These tunes nicely and one by one we swapped them over into the Niall's..........not a good move, they tunned a lot lower, moreso even than the Canning reeds, which IMO were a tad low too. The other thing too was the Hepburn took a bit more air too.

The reeds went back into the McPherson drones and I then tried them..........spot on.......air intake seemed fine too.

Niall drones outa the stocks and the Logan's put in. Harry suggested we tried the Canning's in them first, all I can say is.........they are still in 'n won't be comin' out. They tunned with about 1/4" of hemp showing and the bass a good 4 fingers up from the mount, with plenty of room for fine tuning all over.

The crux of the matter is this, a friend of mine was there also with an immaculate set of 3/4 silver 'n Ivory mounted Naill's fitted with Canning reeds tuning well up.

Harry liked my pipe ( Naill ) but was concerned and baffled as to the stark difference in both Naill pipes.

Needless to say it was a very eventful evening on many fronts, learnt a lot from Harry just sitting talking and bouncing ideas back 'n forth, some I agreed wi and some Ididn't, 'n told him so. There again maybe that's why he's a judge am am not....lol.

Great guy and has been my mentor for over 40 years.

Do any of you have any ideas / comments on this?....or any insight as to why there was such a vast difference?...has Naill altered his bore / turning technique.
There are so many reasons and permutations as to why this has happened

Sorry it's so long 'n dragged out, but all the facts had to be put forward.

Iain.
***** GO FER IT *****
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Gordy88 on Sat 3 Jan - 20:47:51

Good question,,,,

As you know, I am not a lover of CNC pipes, they are too generic, and lack the 'craftsmans touch'
This is not a slight on Nialls per se' but with all CNC pipes,
I do know that there are issues with the bass in Niall's, and if you replace the bottom bass section with one from a set of Sinclairs, you get a far more robust bass sound, this may work in the tenors as well, i've never tried it.

Most pipes around today are reverse engineered Hendersons, some IMO criminal makers have sawn a set of Hendersons right up the middle and slavishly copied them. It works in principal, but some, and I think Nialls are one of them, have made there own wee modifications as they see fit, and that is where the difference comes from.

That, and the one most important difference, the Timber itself. A lot of the sound comes from the timber, not just the reed, thats why silvering pipes can cause problems, as it can stop the wood vibrating, and why Ivory was used as an adornment as it is a natural material

Sounds to me that over time Niall has probably altered the resonance chambers, (or someone has ) and that might be the cause of it. knowing how old the Nialls are might shed some light on this, he has been in the trade for 30 years or so, so there could be a right variation in age and history.

If its baffling Harry it is a rare thing!! He is a close to a Piping Genius as I have ever met, apart from his 2 great flaws that is,
1. He tends to judge you on how he thinks you should have performed, as opposed to how you did against the opposition on the day.

And 2, He misses F. all when he judges you !!!
Cheers
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Redneck on Sun 4 Jan - 19:06:02

Hmmmmmm, some food fer thought there Gordy m8. The point about replacing the bass joint........we done this in the RAMS in the early 70's m8, as you say this gave greater depth to the bass ( btw, these were all Henderson pipes too Suspect ) To go as far as to replace the tenors...........no way, why not just get a seta Sinclair's?

The other set I've referred to were an older seta Naill's........quite good actually, a set from this era would not deter me from them, but this newer stuff..........naw.

Harry reckons he has altered the pipe make up, there's no other explanation for vast difference between the two sets of Niall's.

Yet another point m8, am still not convinced on yer CNC theory.......to me a CNC will give a truer bore than a 100yr old rickety hand lathe, even the old masters had to remove and sharpen their tool bits. When sharpening tool bits you remove metal from the bit..........Sooooooooooo, IMO there will definitely be a variation in the bore of all pipes...........first 20 seta pipes new bit,...........bit out,.... sharpened next 20 pipes will have a narrower bore with the sharpened bit installed.

Not as much as would be seen by the naked eye, but there will be a change from the first pipe made.
IMO this applies to all lathe work, not just pipe bores.......CNC, some crackin' pipes, some crap. Hand turned, some good, some crap ( yes Gordy it's true m8, heard some pish Sinclair's and Henderson's too )
My Logan pipe was hand made, not that that bothers me, the sound is there, but I feel this old adage if it's not hand turned it's no good is a lost cause now. Like you pointed out Gordy, again IMO, it's moreso the wood than the method of the wood being turned........CNC bored 'n hand finished.

Thanks for yer answer m8, good subject 'n ya made some good points too.

Time we had another wee drink 'n chatted about this more. Hmm

Iain.

BTW, reference yer 2nd point on Harry....ain't that what he's there for...... laughing ( aye, he misses sweet FA m8 ), he can still play to m8. Some fingers.
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Gordy88 on Sun 4 Jan - 19:59:13

Fair points mate,

I think that were I don't like CNC pipes is the fact it is a modern set up using modern timber.

IMO, older timber is better for pipes as it has not been 'forced on' in the growth cycle

African countries are now realising that Black wood is a commodity, and are treating it as such, adding levies for export etc, in the next year, you will see pipe prices rising by anything up to 100 per set, just to cover these levies.

As you rightly say, there is some old junk out there, but my point is that the timber used was of higher quality than todays, and was more suited to making pipes as it was more stable.

That is the crux of the matter, most modern pipe makers are using newer wood, and co incidentally using CNC techniques, It is not the boring or turning that is causing problems, it is the movement of the timber after manufacture.

Most, but not all pipe makers use timber that is less than 2 years old, fully understandable with the price and storage costs involved, and the lead in time required to set a business like that up.

Kintail, for example, are regularly using timber in excess of 5 years old, and have stocks for pipe joint restoration over 20, the owner, who incidentally was the last general manager of Peter Henderson Bagpipes before they closed, bought all Hendersons wood stocks, and has done similar things when other makers closed their doors, including buying tooling etc, I assume that William Sinclair has done similar, but am not sure.

One thing is for sure, instead of somebody succumbing to advertising pressure, if you want to buy a decent set of pipes, ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS!!!

We have all handled a lot of old pipes over the years, and I have to admit that the vast majority have been named as 'Henderson'
Sad to say for the owners that a lot of them were not, some were nowhere near, the truth is Henderson Marked ALL their pipes, there may have been 1 or 2 sets that slipped through, but its unlikely,

People do get confused and most don't even know that when Robert Hardie was almost bust, Henderson Bagpipes employed him to manufacture Hardie - Henderson pattern Pipes under license, sad thing was he got going again and Henderson went bust.

Its like St Kilda, they now own the Henderson name, and the Hardie one too, the pipes they make might be stamped Hardie or Henderson, but they are not, they are St kilda, Henderson pattern.

Bit like the Skoda owners who claim its exactly the same as a Volkswagen Ha ha

As for the drunksing drunksing drunksing , we'll get that set up before the season starts

Good topic for discussion, would like to get Stormys view on it

Pint
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Redneck on Sun 4 Jan - 20:32:35

So all in all we both agree it's more to do with the actual wood. Still doesn't answer the initial question of the vast difference between two pipes same maker, same reeds one good 'n one crap. My Logan pipe, same reeds and better than both aforementioned pipes ( IMO)

We need more input, this is turning into a Gordy 'n Iain thread........... laughing
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by janelle on Mon 5 Jan - 4:37:41

Redneck wrote:

We need more input, this is turning into a Gordy 'n Iain thread........... laughing

Maybe so...but sh*t it's been interesting.
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by True_Blue_Piper on Mon 5 Jan - 5:00:22

Gordy88 wrote:Fair points mate,

I think that were I don't like CNC pipes is the fact it is a modern set up using modern timber.

IMO, older timber is better for pipes as it has not been 'forced on' in the growth cycle

African countries are now realising that Black wood is a commodity, and are treating it as such, adding levies for export etc, in the next year, you will see pipe prices rising by anything up to 100 per set, just to cover these levies.

As you rightly say, there is some old junk out there, but my point is that the timber used was of higher quality than todays, and was more suited to making pipes as it was more stable.

That is the crux of the matter, most modern pipe makers are using newer wood, and co incidentally using CNC techniques, It is not the boring or turning that is causing problems, it is the movement of the timber after manufacture.

Most, but not all pipe makers use timber that is less than 2 years old, fully understandable with the price and storage costs involved, and the lead in time required to set a business like that up.

Kintail, for example, are regularly using timber in excess of 5 years old, and have stocks for pipe joint restoration over 20, the owner, who incidentally was the last general manager of Peter Henderson Bagpipes before they closed, bought all Hendersons wood stocks, and has done similar things when other makers closed their doors, including buying tooling etc, I assume that William Sinclair has done similar, but am not sure.

One thing is for sure, instead of somebody succumbing to advertising pressure, if you want to buy a decent set of pipes, ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS!!!

We have all handled a lot of old pipes over the years, and I have to admit that the vast majority have been named as 'Henderson'
Sad to say for the owners that a lot of them were not, some were nowhere near, the truth is Henderson Marked ALL their pipes, there may have been 1 or 2 sets that slipped through, but its unlikely,

People do get confused and most don't even know that when Robert Hardie was almost bust, Henderson Bagpipes employed him to manufacture Hardie - Henderson pattern Pipes under license, sad thing was he got going again and Henderson went bust.

Its like St Kilda, they now own the Henderson name, and the Hardie one too, the pipes they make might be stamped Hardie or Henderson, but they are not, they are St kilda, Henderson pattern.

Bit like the Skoda owners who claim its exactly the same as a Volkswagen Ha ha

As for the drunksing drunksing drunksing , we'll get that set up before the season starts

Good topic for discussion, would like to get Stormys view on it

Pint

We have all handled a lot of old pipes over the years, and I have to admit that the vast majority have been named as 'Henderson'
Sad to say for the owners that a lot of them were not, some were nowhere near, the truth is Henderson Marked ALL their pipes, there may have been 1 or 2 sets that slipped through, but its unlikely,


Rubbish ! Quite the opposite is true....the vast majority of old Hendersons are NOT marked as such. It is only in the second half of the 20th century that marking became pretty much the norm with Henderson.

I worked in the industry albeit a long time ago and handled numerous sets of old bagpipes, including Hendersons; and it was definitely not the norm to see older Hendersons with the marking under the cord beads, or below it.

I have also owned several sets of Hendersons and again, none have been marked as such.

I have one such set just now which were made in 1896. Not only are they not marked as Hendersons, but even the silver (Britannia) is not hallmarked. Prior to WW1, there were a considerable number of bagpipes with silver mounts, especially made by Lawrie and Henderson which were not hallmarked.

Perhaps, the biggest error made is that people confuse pre. 1930 Hendersons and Lawries. The turning is remarkably similar and of course, some of Lawrie's turners came from Hendersons.

And worse....there were many "Hendersons" made in the 60s/70s which are marked as being Hendersons, but aren't.....they were actually made by Hardie.
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Gordy88 on Mon 5 Jan - 14:00:14

[quote="True_Blue_Piper"]

We have all handled a lot of old pipes over the years, and I have to admit that the vast majority have been named as 'Henderson'
Sad to say for the owners that a lot of them were not, some were nowhere near, the truth is Henderson Marked ALL their pipes, there may have been 1 or 2 sets that slipped through, but its unlikely,


Rubbish ! Quite the opposite is true....the vast majority of old Hendersons are NOT marked as such. It is only in the second half of the 20th century that marking became pretty much the norm with Henderson.

Calm down mate!! Razz Razz

I was referring to the post war era, and though that it was in the post but realised now that it was not.
You are right about the older pipes not being marked, and I'm faily sure that in 1969/1970 they were marked below the cord guide rather than in it.

The point is, if you are proud enough of your product, and have confidence in it, you should put your name on it. That might be a modern idea and not really thought of in the past, but it would clear up a lot of ambiguity, and would be likely to have stopped a lot of people getting ripped off buying something that is not what it seems.

The is a seller on ebay who only ever sells what he calls Henderson bagpipes (Not the Bug!!) they even sell Henderons with one piece ring caps, and other sets with tapered closed ferrules, good pipes they are, but they don;t command the Henderson price.

Its very like the BSA Gold Star motorbike, there are allegedly more Gold Stars registered around the world than were actually produced by BSA, the reason was simple, they were twice as valuable as the Bike they were based on, and the conversion was a couple of badges and a cylinder head, dead simple and very lucrative

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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Gordy88 on Mon 5 Jan - 14:05:13

Redneck wrote:So all in all we both agree it's more to do with the actual wood. Still doesn't answer the initial question of the vast difference between two pipes same maker, same reeds one good 'n one crap. My Logan pipe, same reeds and better than both aforementioned pipes ( IMO)

We need more input, this is turning into a Gordy 'n Iain thread...........

laughing

Any idea how old the Logans are?

The Nialls might have been in the hands over an 'Artful Bodger

Might be worth taking a few measurements and seeing if they differ

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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by True_Blue_Piper on Mon 5 Jan - 14:46:50

[quote="Gordy88"]
True_Blue_Piper wrote:

We have all handled a lot of old pipes over the years, and I have to admit that the vast majority have been named as 'Henderson'
Sad to say for the owners that a lot of them were not, some were nowhere near, the truth is Henderson Marked ALL their pipes, there may have been 1 or 2 sets that slipped through, but its unlikely,


Rubbish ! Quite the opposite is true....the vast majority of old Hendersons are NOT marked as such. It is only in the second half of the 20th century that marking became pretty much the norm with Henderson.

Calm down mate!! Razz Razz

I was referring to the post war era, and though that it was in the post but realised now that it was not.
You are right about the older pipes not being marked, and I'm faily sure that in 1969/1970 they were marked below the cord guide rather than in it.

The point is, if you are proud enough of your product, and have confidence in it, you should put your name on it. That might be a modern idea and not really thought of in the past, but it would clear up a lot of ambiguity, and would be likely to have stopped a lot of people getting ripped off buying something that is not what it seems.

The is a seller on ebay who only ever sells what he calls Henderson bagpipes (Not the Bug!!) they even sell Henderons with one piece ring caps, and other sets with tapered closed ferrules, good pipes they are, but they don;t command the Henderson price.

Its very like the BSA Gold Star motorbike, there are allegedly more Gold Stars registered around the world than were actually produced by BSA, the reason was simple, they were twice as valuable as the Bike they were based on, and the conversion was a couple of badges and a cylinder head, dead simple and very lucrative

piper


flower flower flower flower flower flower flower hug hug hug hug hug

sorry old bean......put it down to Enbra Anglocisms- big grin
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Redneck on Mon 5 Jan - 21:36:11

Gordy88 wrote:

Any idea how old the Logans are?

The Nialls might have been in the hands over an 'Artful Bodger

Might be worth taking a few measurements and seeing if they differ

piper

The Logan pipe is ( al hazzard a guess ) 25-30yrs old, every section is marked A.Logan.

Hmmmm, the Naill's........bands property m8, bought via the grant system I believe. So ad assume it was through a reputable dealer ( he says sarcasticly )
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by stormy on Tue 6 Jan - 1:05:49

Gordy88 wrote:....I do know that there are issues with the bass in Niall's, and if you replace the bottom bass section with one from a set of Sinclairs, you get a far more robust bass sound....

During the "Golden Years" of the SPPB many different makes of instrument were played by the pipers but they all had one thing in common......the bottom section of the Bass Drone was "Sinclair"!

Many years ago I was told that you could identify the pipe maker by the number of "rings in the comb", ie, the number of notches on the drones. With the amount of makers these days I doubt if that is an accurate method today.

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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Redneck on Sat 17 Jan - 17:27:03

John, the R.A.M.S done the very same thing regarding the bass joints, and mosta the pipes were Henderson wi a few good Sinclair drones to boot. Tommy insisted even the Sinclair pipes changed to a newer Sinclair bass joint to keep all the bottom joints the same.

Now..........., back da this reed thingy. Gordy stated that he didn't like the Canning's because of the sound on strike in Hmm ( am stumped on that yin ? ), Gordy has just acquired a crackin' seta Henderson pipes WIMO are the easiest drones to reed.
He says he prefers the M&G reeds over Canning's.

Here again the fact arises that reeds do react differently........me, M&G's once they were going were a class reed, yes I said once they were going. The main fallback / downfall I found was the squealy strike in's and trailing off of the drones........near impossible to get a clean cut. Yes I done the usual manipulation of the reed to try to alleviate the situation, but, to no avail.

However, from day one, the Canning reeds have never missed on strike in, been stable and never stopped, the M&G's have ( just my experience ) From the positional issues wi the Naill's a was using to the new A.Logan pipe I'm using now the same reeds are in the Logan pipes and sounding more like the pipe sound I've been after, maybe just a tad deeper on the bass, but al get that wi a bita re-adjustment.

@Gordy, ( btw m8, this ain't a dig at ya, just trying to prove a point regarding the fact to get the right reed set up fer yer own pipe. ) what's the hassle yer finding wi the Canning's, jeeze ad a bet a full weeks wages they'd sound great in a Henderson set up.

Iain.
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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Gordy88 on Sun 18 Jan - 19:45:04

Iain,

Yeah, they did sound great, just sounded odd when coming in..

They were a set that were in use, and belonged to someone else, so I didnt want to fiddle with them too much, but he said they were as they came out of the box, as you say, they might have been set wrong and could have been sorted.

The Mgs went straight in, started, stopped no problem. And are very mellow. They have had a full practise on Saturday past, blown from 1 pm to about 3.45, band practise level, tuning stops etc, but no 'breaks'

They didnt miss a beat, and that is what I want.

To be honest, a lot of reed choice comes down to cost, MGs at sub 40, Cannings are 60, I've spent about 200 on reeds of different makes, add that to a sheepskin bag at 140 every year and its gets pricey.

In an ideal world, we could go to a dealer, who would have a dozen different sets of plastic reeds, and we could go through them and try them all. Then just pick a new box of the one we like off the shelf.

Its done with cane reeds, why not plastic? Might be an idea for traders there, or maybe not, as we wouldnt have to keep buying reeds laughing


Might be an ideal to get together some night and exchange reeds for an hour and see what they are like, this is an interesting thread, and it would be nice to get to the bottom it, mind you, if HS can't work it out, not much hope for me ,lol

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.. Re: Drone reeds in various pipes.

Post by Redneck on Mon 19 Jan - 21:19:27

Right, av changed the Canning bass for a Kinnard carbonfiber. Much fuller sound and tuning a tad higher too, don't know why a changed it..........glad I did. Had some time on my hands prior to doing a wee gig at 19 Infantry Brigade. Wo's & Sgt's Mess, in Kinnegar Barracks ,so thought ad just do a bita checkin' on the pipes.

The new hemp had worn in and a few wee bits needed added, the Kinnard bass reed was in my first aid box ( my wee tin wi odds 'n ends in it ) so a decided da give it a try out.
Class reed, Sass lent me it about 2yrs ago..... Embarassed Embarassed laughing .
Think al keep the mixture of Canning tenors and the Kinnard bass.
TBH the Canning reed was fine, ad no notion a changing it, that was until a tried the other one.
Next step is an inverted cane bass................. laughing , jeeze am worse than a woman fer changin' things......naw, am in search a the holy trinity a reeds. big grin
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