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Is this right?

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.. Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Sat 15 Dec - 14:54:54

No names or bands names mentioned, but I thought this quite alarming. BTW, THIS IS TRUE.

Phone conversation with a well respected and accomplished piping judge........."Hi, well how's yer band doin'?"..........answer:- "Aye, goin' not too bad, we got a few members in to replace the ones who left/retired, 'n we are gettin' stuck inda some new stuff da beef up the medley. Keepin' the same MSR, it's good enough"

"Good,good, ya know, if ya start this comin' season as you did last year we are recommending upgrading to grade2. We can do that ya know."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

steam steam WTF, how can this be?, a band has won promotion to 3A........worked on 3A settings (length of medley ect.)
1 MSR + 1 Medley 4mins duration. Now say this band is upgraded 3-4 contests into the year 2008 how in the name of god are they expected da pull another MSR of grade2 relevant standard AND add another 2-3 Mins onto their medley mid season?........

The thing here seems to be the band is being punished for hard work and trying to push their standard up!!!!
The fault here lies wi the grading board NOT the band, if they got aff their lazy arses 'n actually went 'n visited these upgraded bands 'n do a proper assessment maybe bands wouldn't get this sorta crap thrust upon 'em..........it must be soul destroying, am bloody rippin' it.

People wonder why sometimes I go off on one...........well crap like this is the reason.............jeeze can't wait da the next branch meetin'. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad :fu: :fu: TBP
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Dai Robb on Sat 15 Dec - 16:12:12

T otally agree with you here iain, 100%, that is utter C*** if they do that, they are more or less saying, "we Knew you were too good for 3A but now that we have moved you up a grade, you have let someone else win the trophies in 3A" or similar anyway?
I find it appalling I really do.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Gordy88 on Sat 15 Dec - 17:09:15

This sort of crap really gets on my wick,

Its another example of a band getting punished for doing well,

It is not the fault of a particular band that it does well, and is argueably the best in the grade, it should be held up as an example for the other bands to emulate.

I know where Redneck is at with this, and he knows my more forceful views, which I dont want on here in case it offends anyone, of the judging persuasion!!

But, it is time something was done, being the best band in a grade does not automatically mean they are fit for the higher grade, case in point, look at Tayside Police, did very well in grade 2 in 2006, upgraded in 2007 to Grade 1, and never seen again, I played in Grade 2 in 2006 with Marlacoo, and can tell you from what i heard, it was a very poor grade indeed.

2007 was a far better grade 2, but I cant see the only band to go up being in the top 8,

Bleary have folded, but i really think consideration should have been given to downgrading, them, along with Dysart, tayside and perhaps Ballinderry bridge.

One good year puts you up, takes 3 bad ones to get down, by then your band may well be wrecked.

I am not advocating bands staying in a lower grade, as that is unfair on other bands, i believe in North America there is no compulsory upgrading, ( i certainly stand to be corrected) but that means that a particular band can stay in a lower grade can suck up some cheap silverware.

It is time there was a proper up and down system in place, similar perhaps to the football system.

Upgrading mid season should never be allowed, as it unreasonable to learn a full MSR and add 2 minutes to a medley in a week or two, when other bands in the grade have had all winter at it.

I know who is involved in this, and the band in question has some very good and experienced players in it, but they have been registered there for a couple of years, so the registration people should know that, so should the grading commitee,

And by the way,

The band in question was NOT the most dominant band in the majors at all grades last year,

Good post again mate, now take two wee settlers and calm down!!

Cheers

Or we could send in Sa-aash saviour of t , he'll get it sorted!!
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Dai Robb on Sat 15 Dec - 20:40:48

Good post Gordy well said.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Sun 16 Dec - 15:16:06

Cheers Gordy, 'n as the latter point in your post states, this also proves my point too.

CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN??????? a haven't even started yet....... laughing , but I have let the relevant parties know of this statement.

This should never have been stated via a phone conversation. Had this been their intention, the band in question SHOULD have been given prior warning.......ie:- " If your band dominates the grade3A we will put you up so it would be better if your band are equipped to compete with the various requirements" This IMO would have been the proper channel to go through. Not disrupt the bands confidence before the season has even started, it's hard enough getting people motivated/focused on the task in hand without having this on their mind........if we win we're fecked...........aye great way da compete ain't it.............any wonder a feel like jackin' it in at times...does ma head in. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Dai Robb on Sun 16 Dec - 16:21:39

It certainly does not give you encouragement mate? although your suggestion is a better one? I still feel that even putting the pressure of your success being in fact a penalty? is totally wrong,
Okay if the band did have a run away season in 3A, so be it? the following Season they would have to improve yet again
I mean can you imagine a team getting promoted from League one to the Championship, winning their first Six games, then being told"you are too good, we are moving you to the Premier league instead" Silly Yes, Stupid of Course, so whats the difference?
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Mon 17 Dec - 21:16:45

The thing is.........this certain band will do well in 3A, ie:- be in the prizes, but IMO I cannot see them dominating as they did last year. There are some excellent bands in this grade and getting a prize in any position will be an achievement in my eyes.

There's a part of me would love to knock it up 'em 'n do just that, then there's the other side of the coin too. Bands have folded because some smart ass tries da show he knows better ( or thinks he does ) 'n puts a band up only for the band to struggle 'n go into a decline.

The suggestion I've put forward IS IMO a good one AND a valid one.
However, do you think some of these so called experts on the panel are gonna come out in the dead a winter da some draughty wee dingy band hall 'n do an honest assessment????.........bloody sure they wont. They'd rather listen da some funny handshake member 'n put a band up because his mates band is getting duffed every week.

RSPBA.............GET YER HOUSE IN ORDER YA veggie . Pay tribute to a bands hard graft ....not shaft 'em. :fu: :fu: :fu: ( pity there wasn't a self relief smiley)
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Reid on Tue 18 Dec - 18:03:45

Wow, that's quite the situation Iain. I can't imagine a more unfair way of dealing with things. I hope things get sorted out and the band is able to have a full season in 3A.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Tue 18 Dec - 20:54:00

Yes Reid, I think we will.........but yet again we'll suffer the abuse 'n ridicule of the previous season.

The band WILL carry on no matter what comes of this, just wish the so called powers that be would have done what I suggested in my previous post and pre warned us of their intentions.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Gordy88 on Tue 18 Dec - 21:02:58

One point mate,

Is this the view of the whole panel, or is it the view of one man on it,

We both know he is a great piper and musician, but he does have the odd funny moment too, there have been times when i have wondered is he on the same planet as the rest of us,


I was in Dromara in 1983, Harold Hook stood down as PM, and Richie Newell took over, and the band went from 2 to 3, Were told the same thing about grading, went out first comp and won the Europeans, and were head to head with Ballinderry bridge all season, we dominated early on, but didn't go up till the end of the season.

Might be a wee storm in a teacup, and would certainly be the subject of an appeal, which could take all season to be heard

Cheers Santa - Christmas
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Reid on Tue 18 Dec - 21:33:47

Redneck wrote:Yes Reid, I think we will.........but yet again we'll suffer the abuse 'n ridicule of the previous season.

The band WILL carry on no matter what comes of this, just wish the so called powers that be would have done what I suggested in my previous post and pre warned us of their intentions.

LIke you said the least they could have done was let you know this would be a possibility at the end of last season. You just gotta wonder where peoples heads are at...
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Wed 19 Dec - 21:00:56

@Reid, we'll just let the hare sit m8, nothing can be done until it raises it's ugly head......if it ever does. lol

@Gordy, good point m8, a think that's how it will be done anyhow, a couldn't give two friars tucks.........it just gets da me someone of his stature sayin' that in a casual phone conversation. ( get yer point about the same planet m8......lmao, yes a great guy 'n a super player I owe a lot to him 'n his father, but as you said...... veggie , sometimes..... big grin )
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by bondy on Wed 19 Dec - 22:56:00

Really good thread as ever. Sounds like someone in the hallowed halls likes stirring up S*** and pumping up blood pressures everywhere. Everyone knows that the present system is corruptable by the few. In general i think they get the grades of bands right, in all the years I have been piping there is usually a couple of bands that you hear and think they will be on the up fast track. Thesae bands also find there level D&G Polis got into G2 very fast and threaten to take the step every now and then but it comes to nothing. Tayside Polis great G2 band struggled last season but have a new MD by all accounts from the castle, however they will be looking to top 10 finishes next year. The problem with the system is they are very fast to upgrade but slow to down grade. Every band deserves a couple of seasons to bed into the next step, if they consitantly do not make and impact or be seen to improve move them down. This should only happen at the end of the season as with an upward move. Redneck m8 which ever band it is mentioed in the thread they deserve a full season to dominate a grade and take the glory, please pass on my support.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Guest on Thu 20 Dec - 2:19:17

Great Thread Iain!
Thanks for this useful post.

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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Thu 20 Dec - 21:14:11

@ Terrance, cheers m8.

@Bondy, yes indeed M8, I agree with what you say 100% reference gradings. My point is this though............if this scenario was to come to anything where in the name of god were these experts (sic) from the assessment panel? they should ( if in doubt ) have paid a visit to the band OR at least showed some dignity 'n notified the band of the possibility that this was on the agenda. Hence giving the band adequate notice to prepare for the possibility of being put up a grade prematurely.

Common sense 'n decorum IMO.........there again, common sense doesnt always prevail wi the higher echelon. steam steam NO surrender big grin
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Dai Robb on Fri 21 Dec - 1:20:17

Exactly Iain, when have ypou ever known the "Higher Bodie's to do anything that smacks of common sense.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by stormy on Sat 22 Dec - 0:01:11

I have read this thread with interest and decided not to make any comment.
I do however now have to points which some of you may wish to consider.
A. That any band should NOT be up / down graded DURING any "season".
B. There should be no need to visit a band at practice as grading should be
decided on competition results and NOT on how they play outwith the circle.

Just a couple of thoughts.

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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Gordy88 on Sat 22 Dec - 13:36:48

stormy wrote:I have read this thread with interest and decided not to make any comment.
I do however now have to points which some of you may wish to consider.
A. That any band should NOT be up / down graded DURING any "season".
B. There should be no need to visit a band at practice as grading should be
decided on competition results and NOT on how they play outwith the circle.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Well said,

The only fly in the ointment there is the when sometimes a band gets a large infusion of players.

Lot of gossip around at the moment about players leaving Shotts and going to A new Fife Police band, for example.

I know that only a limited number of players can downgrade at a particular time, but it makes a potential problem for bands in that current grade,

The band that is the subject of this thread has at least 4 ex Grade 1 players in it, one of whom played for Shotts. So from the point of view of other bands in a particluar grade I can see their point too.

As stormy rightly says, they must be judged on their performance in the circle, not in a band hall, as a band hall performance can be easily doctored, just throw in a couple of fringe players, and don't be overworried about tuning drones or chanters, not hard to make any band sound rough.

To be honest, i don't see anything to worry about, as I think 3A has the potential to be a very competive grade next season, good bands coming up, couple of good ones already there, and one coming down from grade 2.

Soon know anyway, only 154 Days to Dumbarton laughing

Cheers
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by True_Blue_Piper on Sat 22 Dec - 13:40:06

Maybe it should be done like the football.....from each grade, two get promoted and two get relegated at the END of each season. Only on exceptional grounds would any band get an exemption.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Admin on Sat 22 Dec - 16:23:05

stormy wrote:I have read this thread with interest and decided not to make any comment.
I do however now have to points which some of you may wish to consider.
A. That any band should NOT be up / down graded DURING any "season".
B. There should be no need to visit a band at practice as grading should be
decided on competition results and NOT on how they play outwith the circle.

Just a couple of thoughts.


Have to agree Stormy.
Once you are in the grade, thats the grade you stay in untill the end of the season then the decision should be made thereafter, taking into consideration the results of the previous season. One question i would have would be how would we fix the migration of players during the close season ??? i.e a struggling G4 band getting few G2 players in and a new PM which has happened in the past ???

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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Redneck on Sat 22 Dec - 16:29:49

True_Blue_Piper wrote:Maybe it should be done like the football.....from each grade, two get promoted and two get relegated at the END of each season. Only on exceptional grounds would any band get an exemption.

Good idea m8, points could be awarded for each contest. Sorta like the Champions of Champions table via the 5 majors??????.

@Stormy, spot on m8, immediate upgrading at the end of the season would be acceptable. You'd then know you'd need to go that extra mile........winning year in and year out IS the main drive for any band, however there comes a time when a band WILL hit a certain level and not go any further. This does not make the band have beens...........IMO this is where a bands true ambition is charted, do they push on 'n be a top 8-6 band at a higher level? or just fester away being content wi what they've got?.

A know which one ad choose ( if a had the piping years left da do it... laughing ), good thread wi some excellent points, however if we do start the season well I fear we'll get the same tirade of abuse as last year, bearing in mind as I stated earlier....some bands hit the turf running, while others take a while to hit it 100% ie:- Culleybackey. The second half of their season was great.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by stormy on Sun 23 Dec - 0:37:15

Admin wrote:One question i would have would be how would we fix the migration of players during the close season ??? i.e a struggling G4 band getting few G2 players in and a new PM which has happened in the past ???

I don't see this as a problem (unless you have a big ego).
Players who move from a G2 to a G4 band must surely be aware that they moving to a G4 band and will be playing at G4 level the next season.
The G4 "Kilty Cauld Bum Pipe Band" does not suddenly become a G2 band overnight because of it's players.

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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by True_Blue_Piper on Sun 23 Dec - 2:44:34

The G4 "Kilty Cauld Bum Pipe Band" does not suddenly become a G2 band overnight because of it's players.[/quote]

You know us then ? laughing
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by Piping Connections on Sun 23 Dec - 3:34:53

I don't see this as a problem (unless you have a big ego).
Players who move from a G2 to a G4 band must surely be aware that they moving to a G4 band and will be playing at G4 level the next season.
The G4 "Kilty Cauld Bum Pipe Band" does not suddenly become a G2 band overnight because of it's players.[/quote]

Ego whats an ego? laughing laughing laughing yeah i agree with you Stormy but wasnt Kirkliston a Grade 4 band untill a new sponser was brought in and a new PM and players, then went on to become Drambuie in G2 then once the sponser withdrew. the band folded altogether. I was out of the piping scene when this went on so ime not 100% sure
But generally as i said i agree with what you said up/downgrading should be done at the end of the season.
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.. Re: Is this right?

Post by bondy on Sun 23 Dec - 12:25:16

I think people get totally hung up on whagt grade a piper has played in yes it would be lovely to have a FM or SFU pipe corp but there are some players that are not the great solo players so will not boost the playing ability of the G4 "kilty cauld bum" (quote stormy) .band what they do bring is the experience and the abiltity to blow a tone no matter what the tunes being played. This is what people should be hung up about as it is sound that gets you noticed in the the lower grades. It is a shame but MAP is slowly erroding playing ability the idea is good bjut has been implimented poorly. At the end of the day if a band is going to dominate they will, and that band will face the sour grapes from the rest of the grade.
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